TWR Podcast Episode 102: Interview With Ron Baker

In a recent episode of The Woodard Report Podcast, Joe Woodard sat down with Ron Baker to discuss a critical topic that impacts professionals across industries: burnout. But the conversation took an unexpected turn as they explored a paradigm shift—rethinking burnout through the lens of "moral injury."

This new perspective has implications not only for accountants but for all professionals seeking fulfillment in their work.

Burnout: A widespread diagnosis

Burnout, as traditionally understood, is characterized by three primary symptoms: exhaustion and loss of enthusiasm, depersonalization and cynicism, and a reduced sense of personal accomplishment. While these symptoms are recognized by institutions like the National Institutes of Health, burnout is not yet an official diagnosis in the medical field.

Baker mentioned a 2016 Medscape report, which suggests alarming statistics—more than half of physicians reportedly experience burnout. This issue extends to other professions, including law, dentistry and accountancy, and is often attributed to high-stress environments and demanding workloads.

A different explanation: Moral injury

Dr. Wendy Dean, author of If I Betray These Words: Moral Injury in Medicine and Why It’s So Hard for Clinicians to Put Patients First, proposes a different explanation for what is often labeled burnout.

Dean argues that professionals are not merely "burned out" but are experiencing moral injury—a psychological harm that occurs when they are forced to act against their deeply held moral beliefs due to systemic pressures.

Moral injury, a concept first applied to soldiers during the Vietnam War, involves situations where individuals must bear witness to, perpetrate or fail to prevent actions that conflict with their values.

In medicine, for example, doctors may feel compelled to prioritize profit-driven metrics over patient care. Similarly, in accountancy, rigid performance indicators like billable hours can create conflicts between serving clients effectively and meeting organizational expectations.

The role of systems in moral injury

Baker underscores that systems, not individuals, are often at the root of moral injury.

For example, in healthcare, physicians may face constraints that prevent them from referring patients to out-of-network specialists, even if it compromises care. These systemic barriers inhibit professionals from fulfilling their purpose, leading to frustration, anxiety and a sense of disconnection from their work.

In accountancy, similar challenges arise.

Professionals may feel pressured to manipulate metrics like realization and utilization rates, leading to a disconnect between their ethical responsibilities and organizational goals. Baker recalls his own experience in a Big Four accounting firm, where "eating time"—working extra hours without reporting them—was common to meet budgetary expectations.

Moving toward purpose-driven practices

A key takeaway from the discussion is the importance of aligning professional work with purpose. As Baker points out, true fulfillment comes not from working less but from meaningful work that aligns with one's values. Addressing moral injury requires systemic changes that allow professionals to prioritize relationships and outcomes over transactional metrics.

One potential solution is transitioning to a subscription-based model. In such a model, the focus shifts from billing for specific services to providing comprehensive support within the context of an ongoing relationship.

This approach has been successful in industries like medicine, where direct primary care (DPC) practices enable physicians to offer personalized care without the constraints of fee-for-service billing. Much like health care, accountancy could provide the flexibility needed to focus on client relationships and outcomes, perhaps via a subscription model.

Bridging the gap between profit and purpose

Baker and Woodard emphasize that profit and purpose are not mutually exclusive.

A well-implemented subscription model can create a sustainable balance by ensuring that professionals are compensated fairly while prioritizing their clients' needs. This approach also fosters a healthier work environment by reducing the pressure to meet arbitrary performance metrics, allowing professionals to focus on delivering value.

For example, Baker shares the story of a doctor who operated at 2 a.m. on a Saturday to address an urgent medical need, exemplifying the dedication and purpose that underpin true professionalism.

Such efforts, however, often go unrecognized in traditional systems that prioritize efficiency over effectiveness.

A call to action

Professionals across industries must reexamine their approach to work, shifting from transactional models to purpose-driven practices.

By addressing the systemic causes of moral injury, organizations can create environments where professionals thrive and clients receive the best possible care or service. As Baker aptly concludes, “We are much more than the scope of our work.”

The conversation between Woodard and Baker serves as a powerful reminder that professions, whether in medicine, accountancy or beyond, are fundamentally about serving others. To create meaningful and sustainable careers, professionals and organizations alike must prioritize purpose, embrace systemic change, and focus on building relationships over transactions.

Listen to the full conversation

To hear more about Baker's take on moral injury, as well as other topics on interest, listen to the full podcast below or take a peek at Baker's professional profile.